"I submit that the founders of the hobby, when determining the definition of what a rpg is, and what the term means, have more authority than you. "
So now I should just shut up because I don't have the "authority"? How about you don't have the authority to claim that Gygax had the authority?Not at all....that is merely an estoppal to fallacious appeal to authority.
"An rpg has a definition and it doesn't change based on your own whims or emotions. When Gary Gygax ran Steading at GenCon, he was running an rpg, even if he picked the scenario."
You're right, it certainly doesn't change. Your idol, Gygax, sure changed that definition a lot though over the years though. But let's all bow down and worship "Gary Gygax's Steading game at GenCon" because ravencrowking says so.Lol. Not sure if the goal here is ad hominem or a good old-fashioned straw man. In case it is unclear to anyone, although I doubt it would be, saying that any working definition of a role-playing game cannot exclude Gary Gygax running a module at a convention does not constitute idolatry or worship of Gary Gygax, the module in question, or the convention.
"In case you forgot: A role-playing game is a game... Because of this (1) rules that are dissociative (and thereby force the player to make choices from outside the stance of the characters) and (2) rules or set-ups that are railroady (and thereby force players to make decisions that the characters would not make, in some cases quite literally being forced to reverse decisions made from the character's stance because the GM does not like the outcome on "his story") damage the degree to which any game is a role-playing game."
You're the one calling for "plot-lines" and defining "best game" as whatever is "most fun", my friend. You break your own definition with almost every post.(1) A plotline is a series of events occurring in fiction, which proceed from cause to effect. Predetermining the resolution of a plotline does indeed cause a railroad. Determining a series of events, following cause to effect, does not....even if that series of events includes future events, so long as the PCs actions can change those events.
I.e., "a princess was kidnapped by a dragon, who will eat her if she is not rescued by the new moon" is a plotline. This does not presuppose any action on the part of the PCs, nor does it presuppose the degree of success of any particular action the players should choose to undertake.
Contrast with "the PCs go to rescue a princess who was...." and you will immediately see, I hope, the difference.
(2) Continuing to conflate "the best game you can run" with "the best game anyone can run" continues a critical error. This is like conflating "the best singing I can do" with "the best singing" - I guarantee you that if the best singing possible was the best singing I can do, no one would listen to any music that wasn't purely instrumental.
But there is nothing new in this post. It's rather a time waster that one hopes will clarify some issues that, I would have thought, were clear in the first place.
As soon as I see someone whining about breaking debate rules by throwing out Wikipedia definitions, I know I've won the argument. It comes down to, "I can't stand on my own two feet, so I'm going to cry to the debate police because....because....he cheated!"
ReplyDeleteNewsflash, there is no debate moderator here, and mommy's nowhere nearby. Have your little fit, we're all playing tiny violins for you. When you're done whining, and ready to start talking about RPGs again, let us know.
"Lol. Not sure if the goal here is ad hominem or a good old-fashioned straw man. In case it is unclear to anyone, although I doubt it would be, saying that any working definition of a role-playing game cannot exclude Gary Gygax running a module at a convention does not constitute idolatry or worship of Gary Gygax, the module in question, or the convention."
Yeah, looks like hero worship to me. Especially when you throw "milieu" around every third paragraph.
"(1) A plotline is a series of events occurring in fiction, which proceed from cause to effect. Predetermining the resolution of a plotline does indeed cause a railroad. Determining a series of events, following cause to effect, does not....even if that series of events includes future events, so long as the PCs actions can change those events. "
Source? I'll respond to this when I see where you got this from.
"I.e., "a princess was kidnapped by a dragon, who will eat her if she is not rescued by the new moon" is a plotline. This does not presuppose any action on the part of the PCs, nor does it presuppose the degree of success of any particular action the players should choose to undertake."
Yep, that's a plotline. It's also a railroad. So if the local NPC adventurers walk in and steal the dragon's treasure, you're still sticking to the script? What if the princess escapes on her own? What if the dragon gets hungry, flies out on its own and raids a village and is killed in the process? In your game, it appears that will never happen because, "the dragon will eat her on the new moon" no matter what.
You're railroading. Plain and simple. That dragon has a life of its own. What a shame you are pre-planning its actions like that.
"(2) Continuing to conflate "the best game you can run" with "the best game anyone can run" continues a critical error. This is like conflating "the best singing I can do" with "the best singing" - I guarantee you that if the best singing possible was the best singing I can do, no one would listen to any music that wasn't purely instrumental."
If you're defining an RPG as something that cannot be defined and measured quantitatively, then you'd be right. I say, however, that an RPG has one definition, anything that doesn't measure up to that definition isn't an RPG. I'm sorry you disagree with that, but so do many modern gamers who play it wrong.
See, that's where we differ. I think that when someone resorts to fallacy as a last-ditch effort to shore up their position, it is a sign that they have lost the debate. You, apparently, believe that pointing out faulty logic is the same thing.
ReplyDeleteIn any event, you are wrong when you suggest that there is no moderator. The blog owner is the moderator, for any blog. I try to avoid heavy-handedness, but you are wrong if you think the playing field is even in this corner of the InterWebs. That's why I'll happily respond to anything you write that is worth responding to.
And even some stuff that isn't.
But this childish crap? Not worth anyone's time, least of all mine.
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