RC: Specifically, adventures were
designed so that encounters, or series of encounters, occurred in a specific
order to facilitate leveling expectations.
CH: Aren’t all modules
that span multiple levels designed that way regardless of edition or even
system?
RC: No.
This is a function of the
steepness of the power curve. An AD&D 1e adventure could span multiple
levels in its intended PC range and not assume leveling at all. An old school
adventure can span multiple levels, assuming leveling, but leave it up to the
players to determine when they are willing to enter deeper/more dangerous
areas. For a long time, player decisions determining encounter order was the
norm for D&D.
CH: I only have
personal experience with 3.0/3.5 onwards but even in those editions you were
told at the beginning of the module what level players were expected to be at
the end of it and the way it got you there was by having the design of the
dungeon/progression of the adventure have you face enemies in a specific order.
In Barrow of the Forgotten King for example you start facing a small pack of
wolves and worgs and low level undead to fighting big encounters with multiple
NPC's with character levels along with their henchmen. The whole module you're
moving through this excavated tomb and there isn't really a way to navigate
ahead of most of the lower level encounters.
Do you have an example
of a module having the option to navigate to the hard stuff before intended?
RC: Take a look at module B2 (The
Keep on the Borderlands) for Basic D&D. This module has no intended order
of play. Closer caves are easier, but there is nothing stopping PCs from
heading into more difficult territory immediately. The players, not the DM,
determine the order in which encounters occur. This was once so much the expectation
of play that the 1e Player's Handbook warns players that the DM may attempt to
trick them (through sloping passages, etc.) into a more dangerous area before
they are ready.
B2 was intended as an
introductory module to teach both players and DMs how to engage with the game.
Players starting at level 1 would be level 3-4 before exhausting the challenges
presented.
Starting with Dragonlance, and
becoming more prevalent though 2e until being codified in 3e, an idea arose
that the order of encounters was important, and, eventually. there was a shift
in the original idea that the PCs were exploring a world where they were
responsible for deciding what risks they would take to the DM presenting a
story where the DM became responsible for encounter order.
Once the DM became responsible
for choosing which encounters the PCs would face, it became important that
those encounters were "fair". Modern gaming's obsession with
encounter balance is an outcome of this. In early gaming, if Eric the Cleric
died, that was Eric's players fault. Now, if Eric the Cleric dies, that is the
DM's fault.
Almost every problem in modern
gaming arises from that shift. DMs feel the need to fudge because they are
responsible for the encounters. The idea that DMs, rather than players, are
responsible for pacing is a direct result of games that arise from DM, rather
than player, choices. Long prep times arise from balance concerns, and godawful
long combats arise, at least in part, from trying to balance encounters on the
DM's side and offer at least some meaningful choices to the players.
You need to go back to see what
gaming can be. I would suggest that looking at Basic and 1e adventures is a
good thing, but you need to take into account that 1e tournament adventures
have a more linear style to facilitate tournament scoring. IMHO, Barrow of the
Forgotten King is the worst example of linear adventure design that I know.
It might not be for you, but I am
a strong advocate of that original game philosophy. Enabling real player choice
is, to my mind, the greatest strength of RPGs, and the most obvious thing they
do far better than video games.
The above lays the groundwork, as well as the initial argument. From hereon in, I am going to separate out the threads of the argument rather than posting them sequentially. If you wish to go back and read the original sequence, follow the link at the beginning of this post.
Thread One: RC: [M]odule
B2 (The Keep on the Borderlands)…has no intended order of play.
CH: I'm reading
through it now and regarding the ability for players to go off course you're
right but the manner in which you're describing PC's just veering off course is
the same in every module, even the modern ones. Modules don't generally have
walls, they have guardrails that you can hop over. Even in my example Barrow of
the Forgotten King if the PC's took the insane step of just tunneling straight
down in the dirt adjacent to the crypts and popped out in the final chamber
with the Yuan ti they can skip to the end. The Design of the module heavily
influences going in a linear fashion but there are ways to circumvent them if
the party really tries.
RC: For the love of Crom, no one
ever said that players couldn't find "totally insane" ways to
circumvent heavily linear modules. That shifts the goal posts onto another
field entirely. You've gone from "Do you have an example of a module
having the option to navigate to the hard stuff before intended?" to
"In any module, you can navigate the the hard stuff before intended if you
try hard enough", which has nothing to do with the original point.
CH: My point with the
tunneling in Barrow of the Forgotten King was to contrast it with your example
of Keep on the Borderlands and show that just because you can go in a different
way doesn't mean the module isn't guiding you along a planned trajectory. In Keep
on the Borderlands the opening background for the module says that you're there
because you've heard about the caves of chaos. The other major encounters which
are beyond the players are behind natural obstacles that the players have no
reason to go to because again their main goal and the reason they're here (the
caves) is literally on the road from the keep. In that module the players have
no reason to just randomly veer off the road and bushwack through the forest or
ford the river to get to the more challenging encounters like the Raider Camp.
You are very clearly meant to go to the caves of chaos and enter the lower
levels of the caves to fight Kobolds and Giant rats before progressing to the
harder stuff.
RC: And in your various responses
you showed a clear understanding that Barrow is designed that way. You seem to
have a hard time understanding that Keep is not. The caves are not
"literally on the road"; they are 2-3 squares from the road in forest
that is described as dense.
CH: And the caves are
100 feet tall at the highest level. Each square is only 100 yards long, at 1000
feet a 100 foot high cavern complex is pretty hard to miss.
[EDIT: I feel it is fair to point out here that the ravine the caves are located in are part of a general rise in elevation. If anything, the players might check the area because where the ravine is located the land is not rising so steeply from the level of the road. The caves are not a 100-foot high cave complex, but much smaller openings in the ravine, as anyone with access to B2 can easily see. The nearest (low) caverns are about 500 yards from the road through dense foliage. The highest caves in the clearest part of the system are some 800+ yards from the road, and, again, trees do not have to be 100 feet high to obscure small openings at a distance, if the ravine can even be seen.]
RC: You are not "meant"
to go to the easier caves first; you are advised to. Nothing prevents you from
doing otherwise, and in my more than four decades experience with this
adventure, it is not at all uncommon for players to tackle harder areas first.
It is also not at all uncommon for players (who do not know the caves are near
the road) to stumble into another encounter first.
Yes, players can fight against
linear design. No, that does not make the design any less linear.
Yes, there are ways to approach
non-linear design which are better than others. No, that does not make them
linear.
CH: I'm reading
through keep on the Borderlands right now and it honestly seems the same way.
There are other things you can do but you really have to go out of your way to
get to them. The Lizardmen Mound, the Raider Camp, and the Spider's Lair are
all across the river while the Hermit is deep in the woods. The Caves of Chaos
are literally on the road and there is zero chance of wandering monsters unless
you're within 6 squares of one of those listed encounters. It's 100% corralling
you towards the caves, even in the notes it says the players receive advice to
"stay at the beginning of the ravine and enter the lower caves first"
The guardrails are lower here but they're definitely still there.
CH: As far as I know
no one at the Keep is aware of any of the other encounters and with the natural
obstacles in their way (dense forest or huge river) why would they end up
anywhere but the caves? You can choose to go to the upper caves and potentially
fight the stronger monsters but you are very clearly intended to go through the
lower caves first and level up before facing the higher ones. Even if you can
go out of order, imo the adventure 100% is specifically designed so that
encounters, or series of encounters, will occur in a specific order to
facilitate leveling expectations.
RC: [Y]ou are somehow
interpreting the players having context for their choices as
"guardrails". Having context to attempt to determine the level of
risk you will face =/= the GM determining the order of encounters.
Yes, the Caves are indeed the
main adventure site. Yes, the closer ones are easier, and the DM is advised to
give the players enough information to make good choices. But the players are
making that choice, not the GM.
CH: Just because you
have the option to do otherwise doesn't mean there isn't a very clear intent
for the players to fight the lower caves first.
[EDIT: At this point, I think it is pretty fair to point out the obvious:
CH: I only have
personal experience with 3.0/3.5 onwards but even in those editions you were
told at the beginning of the module what level players were expected to be at
the end of it and the way it got you there was by having the design of the
dungeon/progression of the adventure have you face enemies in a specific order.
CH: Do you have an
example of a module having the option to
navigate to the hard stuff before intended?
CH: Just because you have the option to do otherwise
doesn't mean there isn't a very clear intent for the players to fight the lower
caves first.
When PCs set out in search of the Caves of Chaos, they have no idea which direction they are from the Keep. The river is indeed an obstacle, but not an insurmountable one. PCs which head north looking for the caves head directly toward the hermit, and this has happened in more than one game that I have run. It is unlikely, but possible, to encounter the lizardmen without fording the river if you are going southwest from the hill south of the caves, toward the river. Why would you assume the caves were near the road? Maybe, if you have only played modern games you would assume that things are placed to make them easy to find.
It is absolutely true that there can be a clear intent that X follows Y, even where there is an option otherwise, but simply making the assumption of that intent is dead wrong.]
Thread Two: RC: Closer
caves are easier, but there is nothing stopping PCs from heading into more
difficult territory immediately.
CH: I'm reading
through keep on the Borderlands right now and it honestly seems the same way.
RC: Worth reading Melan's article
here: https://www.therpgsite.com/design-development-and-gameplay/melan-s-dungeon-layout-article/
If that doesn't help explicate
linear vs. non-linear for you, nothing I can say is likely to do so.
[EDIT: In the article, Melan creates a map of the choices of route available to PCs in the Caves of Chaos, and then compares those choices to other dungeons in a similar way. If you can read that and imagine that the Caves of Chaos offers only linear choices, like Barrow of the Forgotten King, nothing anyone can say will ever convince you otherwise. In fact, if you are going to either read this post or Melan’s article, you are better off reading Melan’s article!]
CH: There are other things
you can do but you really have to go out of your way to get to them. The
Lizardmen Mound, the Raider Camp, and the Spider's Lair are all across the
river while the Hermit is deep in the woods. The Caves of Chaos are literally
on the road
CH: and there is zero
chance of wandering monsters unless you're within 6 squares of one of those
listed encounters.
RC: I imagine you are thinking of
this:
Nothing
will bother the party when camped outdoors, unless they are within six squares
of a numbered encounter area. For each square they are within the six square
range there is a 1 in 6 chance that the monsters there will seek them; so at 6
squares there is a 1 in 6 chance, at 5 there is a 2 in 6, at 4 there is a 3 in
6, at 3 there is a 4 in 6, at 2 there is a 5 in 6 and at I square a 6 in 6 -
automatic encounter. Treat otherwise as a normal encounter.
Which is fine, except (1) the
players don't know when they are near an encounter area, and (2) nothing is
said about daylight hours.
CH: They don't need to
know because of how far and unlikely they are to be near an encounter location.
The tallest part of the caves are 100 feet high, given each square is only 100
yards, the caves are 100% visible from the road. It's 100% corralling you
towards the caves
[EDIT: It is really hard to read that as anything other than trolling.
As mentioned earlier, the ravine the caves are located in are part of a general rise in elevation, and the ravine is located after 200-300 yards of dense woodland. The caves are not a 100-foot high cave complex, but much smaller openings in the ravine, the nearest (low) caverns being about 500 yards from the road through dense foliage.
I have a hard time believing anyone could actually conclude “the caves are 100% visible from the road. It's 100% corralling you towards the caves” in good faith.]
[Another Edit: If the PCs have no idea where the caves are, they have no reason to follow the road. The hermit and the bandits are much closer than the caves but, as Chojen points out, the bandits are across the river, making the hermit encounter more likely. As a point of fact, I have had several groups encounter the hermit first throughout the years, so this jibes with my experience.)
RC: It is definitely true that
the caves are easier to find, but they are near the road, not on it, and there
is forest between the caves and the road. They are not literally on the road.
They are literally within 2-3 squares of the road. The author didn't want to
make "find the adventure site" too tedious, but PCs are not
"corralled".
CH: They don't need to
know because of how far and unlikely they are to be near an encounter location.
The tallest part of the caves are 100 feet high, given each square is only 100
yards, the caves are 100% visible from the road.
RC: Not according to the
adventure, which clearly has the caves/ravine visible when you pass through the
forest:
The
forest you have been passing through has been getting more dense, tangled, and
gloomier than before. The thick, twisted tree trunks, unnaturally misshapen
limbs, writhing roots, clutching and grasping thorns and briars all seem to
warn and ward you off, but you have forced and hacked your way through
regardless. Now the strange growth has suddenly ended - you have stepped out of
the thicket into a ravine-like area. The walls rise rather steeply to either
side to a height of about 100’ or so - dark, streaked rock mingled with earth.
Clumps of trees grow here and there, both on the floor of the ravine and up the
sloping walls of the canyon. The opening you stand in is about 200’ wide. The
ravine runs at least 400’ west (actually 440’) to where the western end rises
in a steep slope. Here and there, at varying heights on all sides of the
ravine, you can see the black mouths of cave-like openings in the rock walls.
The sunlight is dim, the air dank, there is an oppressive feeling here - as if
something evil is watching and waiting to pounce upon you. There are bare, dead
trees here and there, and upon one a vulture perches and gazes hungrily at you.
A flock of ravens rise croaking from the ground, the beat of their wings and
their cries magnified by the terrain to sound loud and horrible. Amongst the
litter of rubble, boulders, and dead wood scattered about on the ravine floor,
you can see bits of gleaming ivory and white - closer inspection reveals that
these are bones and skulls of men, animals, and other things...
CH: Pretty sure that's
from the pov of you at ground level while your vision is obscured by the tree
line. On the flat ground near the road/approaching it you'd have a clear view
of at least the rock formation.
[EDIT: I think that I’ve made my point about the caves being visible from the road – assuming that the road is even the first thing you follow – fairly clear by now. It is abundantly clear that the adventure was not intended to be an exercise in frustration. You are intended to be able to find the caves. On the other hand, neither are the caves “100% visible from the road” or the module “100% corralling you towards the caves”.]
Thread Three: RC: The
players, not the DM, determine the order in which encounters occur.
CH: even in the notes
it says the players receive advice to "stay at the beginning of the ravine
and enter the lower caves first"
RC: [P]layers may receive advice
to tackle the closer/lower caves first, but they do not have to follow it. Nor
is advise always useful; if they trust the evil cleric in the Keep or decide
that "Bree yark!" is goblin-language for "We surrender!"
they could be in trouble.
[Y]ou are somehow interpreting
the players having context for their choices as "guardrails". Having
context to attempt to determine the level of risk you will face =/= the GM
determining the order of encounters.
Yes, the Caves are indeed the
main adventure site. Yes, the closer ones are easier, and the DM is advised to
give the players enough information to make good choices. But the players are
making that choice, not the GM.
Chojen goes on to say: “So again, the entire point of everything I've ever said was in service to replying to the line from your original post:
Specifically, adventures were designed so that encounters, or series of encounters, occurred in a specific order to facilitate leveling expectations.
None of that has anything to do with choice, more about how the encounters you play and face as a player are generally tailored to the level they're at. Even in Keep on the Borderlands the insanely hard encounters that you can walk into immediately in the caves like the Ogre or Bugbears aren't outside the realm of possibility for a party of 6-9 level 1 adventurers to take on and defeat.”
And, again we go back to:
This is
a function of the steepness of the power curve. An AD&D 1e adventure could
span multiple levels in its intended PC range and not assume leveling at all.
An old school adventure can span multiple levels, assuming leveling, but leave
it up to the players to determine when they are willing to enter deeper/more
dangerous areas. For a long time, player decisions determining encounter order
was the norm for D&D.
We don’t have to worry about “the insanely hard” encounters, because the power curve is shallow enough that “the caves like the Ogre or Bugbears aren’t outside the realm of possibility for a party of 6-9 level 1 adventures to take on and defeat.”
But, outside of that, when you look at the map to the Caves of Chaos, the really difficult caves – the temple and the minotaur, can be entered first if you are so inclined. The order of encounters is not up to the GM; it is up to the players. Even those encounters, because of the shallower power curve, might be surmountable. I played KotB before I ran it, and the first cave I entered was the minotaur’s. And we defeated the beast, although not without sacrifice.
You are not "meant" to go to the easier caves first; you are advised to. Nothing prevents you from doing otherwise, and in my more than four decades experience with this adventure, it is not at all uncommon for players to tackle harder areas first. It is also not at all uncommon for players (who do not know the caves are near the road) to stumble into another encounter first.
CH: The original
comment I responded to was:
Specifically,
adventures were designed so that encounters, or series of encounters, occurred
in a specific order to facilitate leveling expectations.
The Keep on the
Borderlands fits that definition to a T.
RC: You clearly are just trolling
here.
A bit about the
goalposts.
(1) [M]odule B2 (The
Keep on the Borderlands)…has no intended order of play.
(2) In B2, closer
caves are easier, but there is nothing stopping PCs from heading into more
difficult territory immediately.
(3) In B2, the
players, not the DM, determine the order in which encounters occur.
(4) [Modern D&D]
adventures [are] designed so that encounters, or series of encounters, occurred
in a specific order to facilitate leveling expectations.
None of these goalposts have moved.
In conclusion, by untangling the threads of this discussion, I hope to make it clearer to the reader. Keep on the Borderlands is not a linear adventure.
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