Today we are sitting down with
controversial rpg writer
Venger Satanis
about his newest release,
Cha’alt and a few older releases.
And yes, there is some talk about politics because our politics are pretty
different and these days it has to be done.
RCK: So, before we talk about your latest project,
there are a few things we should get out of the way. In some circles, you have
a reputation for being…shall we say somewhat bombastic?
VS: Yes, I am outspoken and not shy about sharing my
opinions… occasionally with dramatic flair.
RCK: There
is nothing wrong with a bit of drama. When running games, for instance, I
reserve my biggest d20 for the baddest monsters. Also, nothing wrong with
sharing opinions, so long as you have an open mind.
VS: I do try to have an open mind. But I’m also at an age where no one can
convince me that water isn’t wet, overly complex RPGs are more fun than simple
ones, or that Socialism is worth trying one more time.
RCK: I’m in my 50s, and I am not old
enough to remember FDR. Or to remember socialism in the United States, or
anywhere in the world that the United States didn’t actively work against. I do
know that socialist programs in the US include the military, public roads,
schools, libraries, fire departments, and other things which I have benefitted
from. I’ve worked for both the US Military (Legal Specialist) and the US Census
Bureau (various positions, eventually the Finance department in Los Angeles).
I’m not old enough not to have my mind changed, if the evidence points in a
different direction. For instance, experiencing both the US and the Canadian
health care systems, I know that the Canadian system is considerably better.
VS: In the United States, I’d call those social
programs. There are things that everyone
in the country can use collectively, that we all have in common, such as roads
and the military. I just don’t want the
government controlling companies or redistributing wealth or giving away free
stuff and then taxing the middle and upper classes to the point where the rich
(or their money) flee to the Cayman Islands. I prefer freedom.
In the words of Joe
Biden in the Democratic debate that just happened a couple days ago, “This
is America.” While our health care
system is far from perfect, I’d rather have a procedure done here, where I know
it’s going to be fast and performed by the best doctors with cutting-edge
medical technology.
Also, (I just Googled this) Canada’s population is
approximately 35 million, and the population of the United States is about 290
million more than that. Population makes
a difference.
RCK: Well,
you can do the research. American prices are substantially higher than in other
parts of the world, and outcomes are generally worse. American exceptionalism
isn’t supposed to mean that every other modern country can do it except
America. And I certainly am no fan of Joe
Biden!
But, ultimately, we can agree to
disagree about this. I don’t expect to convince you in an interview about
gaming.
I’ve seen at least one YouTube video
you did where you drop the persona. You’re responding to criticism that one of
your games isn’t OSR, which I’ll get to in the next question. You seem very
relatable in that video, and here. I guess there is a balancing act deciding
when to “put on the motley”?
VS: There isn’t that big a difference between the regular
old me and Venger Satanis. The latter
can be larger than life, but so can the former.
I’m both relatable and a geeky weirdo, just depends on how far past the
surface you want to go.
RCK: You are the person behind Alpha
Blue as well. That, and some racy imagery in other products,
contributes to a reputation as your being sort of a “soft porn” peddler. I’d
like to ask you, first, how do you respond to that, and second, how prominently
does sexual content feature in a game of Alpha Blue when you run it? Where do
you fade to black?
VS: Ah, yes… Alpha Blue. It’s one of the things I’m best known for and
most proud of, but it also carries a stigma.
Alpha Blue triggers a lot of people. 20 years ago, it would have been the
far-right that took offense to eroticism, sleaze, and soft-core porn in
RPGs. But now it’s the puritanical leftist
types that condemn it because there aren’t any kid-friendly drag shows or power-bottom
bear and twink action explicitly called out in examples.
RCK: I’d
just like to clarify that you are not using those terms in a derogatory manner.
VS: Correct, I wasn’t being derogatory with the gay slang
I learned from It’s Always Sunny In Philadelphia. But several gamers who’ve denounced Alpha
Blue have done so because it’s not specifically LBGTQ+ enough. If they actually wanted Alpha Blue to include
more of that stuff, then ask me about licensing your adventure or something,
don’t just pitch a fit and crap all over my game.
On the other hand, I would like to go out of my way to
denounce and oppose activities that combine kids with drag queens. I have no problem with any sexual activity
between consenting adults. But I’m
totally against pedophilia, the sexualization of children, and normalizing
deviant sexual behavior by exposing kids to it at an impressionable age.
Even “normal” sexual behavior should be kept away from
children. I’m not going to sit my kids
down in front of a movie that’s graphically showing missionary sex between a
man and a woman. They’re kids!
RCK: I’m not
sure how old you are, but I’m old enough to remember All in the Family in a
fond way. All of the characters were flawed, but we loved them all despite
that. Archie Bunker gave us a window into understanding bigotry, and it also
gave us a window into how Archie could change for the better.
VS: I’ll be 45 in November, born the same year as
D&D. I’ve seen a few episodes of All
in the Family, and I remember watching a lot of Gilligan’s Island and Bewitched
as a kid, along with all the Saturday morning shows like Dungeons & Dragons, Thundarr,
Scooby
Doo, He-Man, G.I. Joe, Transformers, and Land
of the Lost.
RCK:
Sleestaks for the win! I watched a lot of those same shows, although G.I.
Joe and Transformers never really caught my interest.
I don’t know where you stand politically, apart from the issue of health care,
but I am somewhat to the Left of Bernie
Sanders. We now live in an area where censoring people seems to belong to
the “Left”. Which is weird, if you think about it. It’s like saying book
burning is a progressive ideal. It also
leads to people self-censoring in case someone thinks that a person you talk to
might be toxic, or some observation might be demonized. I think this has a
tendency to create an echo chamber where everyone who is not “like us” is
viewed as some kind of monster.
VS: Wait, to the “left” of Bernie Sanders? What’s more leftist than an old school
communist? Pure anarchy?
RCK: The US
political system has moved very far to the Right. As far as the rest of the
world is concerned, Sanders is pretty moderate. From a historical perspective, Sanders is a Centrist. Most of the
people who claim to be Centrists – including most modern Democrats – would have
been considered Right Wing in the 70s.
VS: And 70’s Democrats would be called alt-right white
supremacists by today’s standards.
RCK: Not sure I
can agree with that. Certainly racism was a lot more prevalent in the 70s than
it is today. Or, more prevalent in the
mainstream.
VS: The US has always been to the right, though right and
left are relative terms. The world has a
lot of problems. Even though America
isn’t perfect, I believe it’s still the greatest country in the world.
Bernie is only calling it “Democratic Socialism”
because he knows that half his base would leave if he actually went
full-throttle Communist before getting elected President. Some prominent lefties have stated that
Socialism is just progress towards Communism.
Only a matter of time, slippery slope, and all that.
RCK: Hard
disagreement there. There is a pretty big difference between what Sanders is
talking about and what the media portrays it as.
VS: I think the vast majority are fed up with “cancel
culture.” Those types of witch hunts,
demonetizing, deplatforming, online outrage, endless protests, and boycotts are
toxic. I think they’re making everything
worse. But it’s a minority of keyboard warriors
perpetrating all this nonsense… the
media, Antifa, radical politicians, activists, and left-leaning twitter people
following a trend.
RCK: There
we can agree, at least to a degree. That kind of thinking is itself toxic. It harms our ability to
understand (and thereby influence) movements in the hobby and the world. It
makes us weaker as a group. And it poisons us as individuals. That’s not really
“Left”. That’s fascism creeping into the Left. But anti-fascism is not itself a problem, and following Twitter trends is a problem regardless of which "side" you are on.
VS: I don’t think fascism is restricted to any political
group. Human beings are both good and
bad. Sometimes, the bad outweighs the
good. Doesn’t matter if its left or
right. Authoritarianism is destructive
to a free society. Too tight a grip and
the people are strangled, too loose and there’s disarray. I find the same philosophy goes for Game
Mastering.
RCK: Which
seems reasonable to me. I find the PoliticalCompass model useful, which uses a Left/Right and an
Authoritarian/Libertarian axis.
VS: Under normal circumstances, I’d be in the middle. But I feel the left has gone too far over the
edge, and that has forced me further right.
RCK: Well,
suffice to say that there are a lot of places where we disagree on the
political front. And it is hard to escape talking politics these days.
VS: Sorry for the tangent.
RCK: Not a
problem. I tend to think we are all
better off if we talk about these things, even with people we disagree with.
Maybe especially when we disagree!
VS: Back to Alpha Blue… sex sells, controversy
sells, and every so often good writing/design sells, too. I love sex, exploitation movies, comedy, and
sci-fi. So, why not put them all
together? If that makes me a porn
peddler, then fine by me. About 15 years
ago, I very nearly almost became a porn producer. Like actual porn films. Went to a weekend seminar to learn how and
everything. Thought I might get to meet Ron Jeremy, too, but unfortunately that
didn’t happen.
Yes, sexual content of some kind almost always
features in my Alpha Blue games. Even
if it’s a one-hour demo, I try to include something. Maybe I’ll dangle a tantalizing cocktail
waitress in front of the players or they’ll walk into an area of the space
station where there’s a two-way mirror looking into the girls’ locker
room. Stuff you’d see in Porky’s,
Police
Academy, or Revenge of the Nerds, except it’s also science-fiction.
While I don’t detail every thrust and moan, it’s clear
what’s going on. There’s a beginning,
middle, and end. No fading to black. Could be something like… you start rubbing
WD-40 all over the sex-bot’s metallic body.
She’s getting turned on and opens her legs. What are you doing?
Player: I want to start banging!
Ok, you penetrate her inviting soft-circuits. You’re giving it to her good, it looks like
she’s about to blow a gasket.
Eventually, you finish on her… [rolls dice]
RCK: To each
his own. I once had a player who wanted
to make a “serious” D&D game about how his penis was like an elephant’s
trunk. The game didn’t last that long.
VS: I can see where that might be an element of a D&D
game, but the whole game? Even something
we can all agree on – like a dragon – how can the entire game be only about
this dragon? It needs other things. I love hamburger, too, but an entire bowl of
just cooked hamburger is hardly a satisfying meal.
RCK: He did, literally, want to keep
bringing it up. Pun intended. It was an urban campaign, and the party couldn’t
enter a bar without his describing how his dick grabbed peanuts from the bar.
VS: While I enjoy a good running gag, such things have
their time and place. Alpha Blue is that
time and place, but probably not your everyday D&D campaign.
RCK: I guess it makes a difference
whether or not everyone at the table is into it.
VS: Right, we
all have expectations. That’s why
there’s different games, each with their own flavor.
RCK: Last
but not least – you exploded onto the scene around the same time I did, with
the publication of Dungeon Crawl Classics. I can imagine that the material you
were producing then didn’t hit the “family friendly” requirement for the DCC RPG logo. Can you tell us a little
bit about your early experiences with the DCC
community, as well as why and how you decided to go your own way?
VS: Yes, Dungeon Crawl Classics got me
excited about the OSR and going back
to old school gaming. Up until then, it
just seemed… kind of weird or crazy to just pick up the gaming materials we had
from the early 80’s and start a campaign.
Mind you, I actually did run a Mentzer red box one-off way back in 1999 with some of my college
buddies. It was fun, but I don’t think
anyone considered carrying on with it. I
guess we were playing it ironically, sort of.
But then I was a dumb-dumb in my mid-twenties and simply thought that new
was always better… but it isn’t.
Progressive doesn’t equal progress.
RCK: Not always, no.
VS: So, the OSR
was a paradigm shift – a reaction to modern gaming culture ushered in by 3rd
and 4th edition. While DCC helped bridge the gap back to old
school fundamentals, that game definitely has its own vibe. Some stuff I like, but there are things I
don’t care for. And with hundreds of choices,
plus the ability to craft your very own house-rules, I just didn’t see the need
to follow DCC that closely.
RCK: Okay.
That’s a lot of background out of the way! Now we can talk about Cha’alt.
I’m not certain if I am looking at
something designed for use with a more typical fantasy rpg or something like Stars
Without Number. There aren’t just science fiction elements in here –
the setting is connected to other worlds. Where were you going with this, when
you wrote it?
VS: It's supposed to be a hybrid of post-apocalyptic
fantasy (like Dark Sun) and Stars Without Number, White
Star, Star Wars, etc. I re-use
a lot of the same concepts when creating a new adventure or setting. I’m never going to stop including tentacles,
dark gods, evil sorcerers, crashed starships, robots, lasers, civilizations in
ruin, and the like.
If you like that about my stuff, great! You get to see more of it in various shades,
warped here and there so it’s fresh.
Another benefit is that most things connect, more or less. You could use The Islands of Purple-Haunted
Putrescence and Liberation of the Demon Slayer with Cha’alt. Or you could include elements in Cha’alt
with Gamma
Turquoise: Santa Fe Starport or Dead God Excavation. Sky’s the limit!
VS: Definitely. I
personally could use Cha’alt with every version of
D&D or retro-clone, and pretty much any traditional rules-light
system.
The latest incarnation of Crimson Dragon Slayer
focuses on a D20 hybrid between OSR and 5th edition, which I like to
call O5R. That’s what I use running virtual games on Roll20.
It lets us actually play a 60- or 90-minute game and get pretty
far. If I worried about character sheets
and all the rules, we’d never get past the very first encounter!
Plus, I like GMing for noobs. They respond well to minimal, basic systems
without all the fiddly bits. Crimson
Dragon Slayer D20 is a good fit for me, and that’s what counts.
RCK:
Absolutely.
I have to ask you – Gamma Incel Cantina? What’s that about?
VS: Prince
of Nothing, who consulted on Cha’alt,
reviewed Alpha Blue and we were joking back and forth in the
comments. He said gamma incel something
or other and it made me laugh. I needed
a name for the Mos Eisley cantina rip-off in Cha’alt, and decided to
name it Gamma Incel Cantina.
Personally, I think “incel” is kind of a dumb
insult. Just me sitting here in my chair
at my desk, I’m rather involuntarily celibate.
If I had my way, I’d be having sex right now. Alas, that’s not my day job.
RCK: I guess
this interview isn’t as stimulating as you’d like?
VS: Well, even if I was having sex three times a day, I’d
still need to take breaks. I do enjoy a
good interview, such as this one, so can’t really complain.
RCK: Good to hear. My understanding
is that “incel” isn’t meant to imply that you aren’t having sex right now. It’s
supposed to be both that you aren’t able to get a sexual partner, and that you
are blaming the other (or same?) gender because they don’t find you attractive.
A combination of self-sabotage combined with an unwillingness to recognize your
own responsibility.
VS: Well, I’m married… so my options are rather limited.
RCK: It does
get thrown around as an ad hominem
pretty frequently when certain people encounter arguments that they aren’t
ready to counter. Not unlike the idea that anyone who refused to support Clinton must be a racist or a
misogynist.
VS: Yeah.
RCK: As you said earlier, a certain
type of Authoritarian/fascism isn’t limited to the Left or the Right. But the
idea that a person’s inability to get a date makes actual misogyny or rape okay
is clearly wrong. As you said earlier – I strongly believe that what consenting
adults do is no one else’s business.
VS: Obviously, I’m against actual rape.
RCK: I
didn’t mean to imply otherwise! And now I have to apologize for pulling the
discussion off on a tangent again. But I think that we can both agree that,
sometimes, when dealing with controversial content it is important to make
things like this clear. It is all too easy to find yourself on the wrong side
of people who want to declare you a sexist, racist, or whatever. Sometimes that
tar is applied with a really broad brush.
VS: Those are
the times we live in. We’re almost at a
tipping point, I think.
RCK: There we agree...we just hope that things tip in different directions. Anyway,
I’m looking at the layout of Cha’alt, and I think it is
fantastic. Information is easy to find, and there is a great use of text boxes
and callouts. That page background, though, is going to be murder on my
printer!
VS: Thanks! Gold
Ennie winner Glynn Seal did the
layout and cartography. I wanted it to
be both gorgeous and easy to use.
Yes, it would be murder on your printer.
I’m hoping everyone that likes the PDF will buy the
fancy hardcover (you’ll get a discount based on the amount spent on the digital
version) coming in October. I went the
way of independent boutique RPG creators and ordered a print run from Friesens, who did Maze of the Blue Medusa, Silent
Titans, and a few others. Super
high quality!
RCK: There’s
a lot of stuff in your Adventure Writing and Game
Master books that I really like. I’ve talked about that here. When I’m running games, I
also like to include the occasional dramatic flourish.
VS: Gaming should be fun.
If it’s a slog for the GM, how great can it be for the players? Little interesting elements added to the game
here and there make sessions more enjoyable.
I ran a playtest of Cha’alt at Gary Con this past March. It was the Beneath Kra’adumek dungeon.
I decided to use that d100 table of things the PCs have done in their
past. One result rolled at character
creation literally changed the entire session.
That tiny detail went from central character motivation to running joke
to the thing that saved the day at the end.
So, the moral of that story is never game without How
To Game Master Like A Fucking Boss!
RCK: Care to
expand on that? What happened?
VS: From memory, one of the PCs acquired a transparent
cube. He was fascinated by it and kept
coming up with possible applications, like after the dungeon he’d go into
business manufacturing and selling similar transparent cubes. In one room of the Kra’adumek dungeon,
there’s a way to subtly change reality.
The cube became a sphere. There
was a lot of inter-PC chatter about the sphere and what it might mean. Eventually, it made sense that throwing the
sphere into the purple demon-worm’s mouth could destroy it.
RCK: There is something magical
about gaming that surprises everyone at the table, including the GM.
VS: Yes, the surprise or even possibility of surprise
heightens the experience. If I ran the
exact same scenario the exact same way every time, I’d want to quit.
RCK: I could
not agree more. There are some pretty off-the-wall things in Cha’alt
that I imagine would be funny in play. The “fruities” in the Black Pyramid, for instance. As a
father of three myself (two are now adults), I have seen enough kids’
programming to understand wanting the PCs to dice those things into little
pieces!
VS: When I’m doing “gonzo work,” I try to find that
balance between “normal” and totally batshit insane. There are some dark things, fun things,
off-the-wall things… a wide variety. I
dug deep, sifting and winnowing for as many references and influences as
possible. But I like to twist things
around, cross-reference.
RCK: Why
should people buy Cha’alt? Give us your elevator pitch.
VS: I usually describe Cha’alt as eldritch,
gonzo, science-fantasy, and post-apocalypse.
It’s both a campaign setting + megadungeon with lots in-between. 218 pages of delectable weirdness that will
bludgeon your vanilla fantasy over the head like Negan, Glenn, and that
barbed-wire baseball bat.
RCK: You do Gary Con every year, I believe, but I
don’t think we’ve run into each other yet. Maybe I could get in on one of your
games next year?
VS: That would be awesome!
My convention schedule is sporadic at best. I try to hit up both Gary Con and Game Hole Con
about every other year. Five kids is no
joke! Due to a family vacation in March,
I won’t be at the next Gary Con. However, I’m planning on being there in 2021…
with tentacles!
RCK: Well, 2021 then. It was a real pleasure
talking to you!